tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post8033878279057834900..comments2023-10-23T14:19:00.021-07:00Comments on Atheodox Jew: The "First Cause" Bait-and-Switch ScamAtheodox Jewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-34109907843143793912014-06-12T01:13:11.979-07:002014-06-12T01:13:11.979-07:00Here's an excerpt of an audio lecture by Rabbi...Here's an excerpt of an audio lecture by Rabbi Yaakov Hillel one of the experts on this phenomena. available at: http://ohr.edu/audio/17Tammuz5766/R.%20Yaakov%20Hillel%20-%201001.mp3<br />he says at 46:00 "sometimes some of these people seem to have some sort of power of intuition. they can be quite prophetic. impressively. they can know hidden things. sometimes I've checked it out and I found out they have well organized of obtaining information (they are charlatans) ... but others really have this type of power... (skipping to 51:18) we should not be impressed when we see someone who knows hidden things, if you are interested I can take you to shaar shechem introduce you to a few arabs who do the same thing. there are these types of things. It exists. but that's not what impresses us."<br />yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-63015480226210479962014-06-10T09:01:40.647-07:002014-06-10T09:01:40.647-07:00how can we reach the LA woman? Would love a readi...how can we reach the LA woman? Would love a reading. Even though I have doubts, I would be very respectful of her.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-9549283438521988282014-06-02T03:30:16.651-07:002014-06-02T03:30:16.651-07:00BTW, you can't expect a mathematical type proo...BTW, you can't expect a mathematical type proof for the existence of God. by mathematical I mean one with a conclusion which nobody can deny and which no questions can be raised against it. this is brought down in the intro of the chovos halevavos. the commentaries there point out that the subject is simply too complicated and subtle. but you can arrive at something called "nitzuach" or "raya" where one view defeats another due to the losing view having far more questions/difficulties against it. if you ever want to discuss/debate some points on this, email me.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-18191594051385620112014-05-29T22:30:05.502-07:002014-05-29T22:30:05.502-07:00i would have said the same thing had I not seen it...i would have said the same thing had I not seen it with my own eyes. guy told me things i myself didn't know and which i was able to confirm after. anyways, I probably should have kept my mouth shut. yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-53166540435840797032014-05-29T18:44:11.556-07:002014-05-29T18:44:11.556-07:00> he doesn't actively look but rather "...> he doesn't actively look but rather "receives". as if he has some kind of antenna and sometimes gets this and sometimes that, or sees "mentors".<br /><br />All mediums/psychics work this way.<br /><br />It's one of the ways they avoid falsification: if a skeptic is in the room, or someone tries to set up an experiment, the psychic can claim that the presence of a non-believer is blocking his reception.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-27517854533412515522014-05-29T14:52:45.378-07:002014-05-29T14:52:45.378-07:00i hear. it's not for everyone. i find myself a...i hear. it's not for everyone. i find myself attracted to this. perhaps due to general curiosity and desire to understand the world accurately. i know of a chabad lady in LA with such powers. I called her once and just let her talk. she could see into my house in israel. was freaky.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-20029872346568188022014-05-29T14:48:37.686-07:002014-05-29T14:48:37.686-07:00also it doesnt work like a normal physical sense. ...also it doesnt work like a normal physical sense. he doesn't actively look but rather "receives". as if he has some kind of antenna and sometimes gets this and sometimes that, or sees "mentors". cannot elaborate too much... may have said too much already.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-22170422788808867462014-05-29T14:47:03.902-07:002014-05-29T14:47:03.902-07:00Just to know, I'm not talking necessarily abou...Just to know, I'm not talking necessarily about "scam" artists. Unless I have reason to think otherwise, I give people the benefit of the doubt that they're sincere and not trying to put one over on anyone. But I am skeptical about such "readings" being genuinely paranormal.<br /><br />Also, I apologize if what I said at all sounded like I was suggesting that you don't know how to think. On the contrary, I can see from the incredible work you've put into the Chovos Halavavos piece what a careful and thorough thinker you are!<br /><br />Yes, it may well be that if I sat down with him I'd be convinced. But then I would ask myself - how different is my experience from the thousands upon thousands of intelligent people who walk away from psychics and mediums (cold readings) absolutely flabbergasted, emotional, with tears in their eyes, without a doubt in their mind that this person peered into their soul?<br /><br />I for one don't have the confidence to think that I could sit through a similar experience and be the "only" one who's immune to being "wowed" and drawn into a false sense of certainty.Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-10694676669952934282014-05-29T14:03:14.849-07:002014-05-29T14:03:14.849-07:00yes. i'm aware of these prizes. but these peop...yes. i'm aware of these prizes. but these people shun publicity. and dont feel any loss since "whatever you're supposed to earn, etc is fixed anyway." i'm 100% sure not a scam. i have a degree in physics so i know how to think. i suspect if you sat down with this guy you'd be convinced within a few minutes.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-11698423569355066152014-05-29T13:41:08.889-07:002014-05-29T13:41:08.889-07:00Actually the above "tumah-detection" exp...Actually the above "tumah-detection" experiment could be done with just one person. Put out X number of chairs, have a niddah sit in one, and let the mekubal identify which chair it is. Do this several times, and see how many "hits" he gets.Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-76460612146775247022014-05-29T10:09:05.185-07:002014-05-29T10:09:05.185-07:00Fascinating and compelling stuff - I know from exp...Fascinating and compelling stuff - I know from experience. In fact I once "trained" with a respected mekubal and have a very palpable sense of what you're talking about. The question is whether it isn't all reducible to a combination of psychological suggestibility, pattern-seeking and openness to "powers" on the part of the consumer, and expertise in cold-reading, psychological insight, and confidence/charisma on the part of the mystic/psychic. <br /><br />You can see some of these techniques in action here (with hakaras hatov to Derren Brown):<br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_pj1NUoOHo" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_pj1NUoOHo</a><br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP7Ys9ocTk" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP7Ys9ocTk</a><br /><br />When you say you have "no doubt whatsoever that it's real", are you *sure* it isn't attributable to the above? Are you sure that you're different from the millions of others throughout the world, whether connected to other religions, New Age ideas, or just "stam" find their way to a psychic, who speak with equal certainty about the "truth" of their experiences - yet where you might very well dispute their claims?<br /><br />There's a magician/skeptic named James Randi who offers a $1 million prize to anyone who can demonstrate paranormal ability, including clairvoyance. It's been decades, and no one has ever successfully claimed the prize. The mekubal I worked with claimed to be able to "sense" tumah, such that he'd be able to tell you which chair to sit in and which not. I'd like to see if he, and someone else who claims the same ability, would be able to identify the same chairs in a controlled experiment. If they could do it to statistical satisfaction, they'd have a cool million to donate to the tzedaka of their choice! But I don't have the nerve to ask him, frankly because I wouldn't want to set anyone up - let alone a decent, caring person like he is - for humiliation.<br /><br />Thoughts on this?Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-32578217011050472762014-05-28T22:51:14.695-07:002014-05-28T22:51:14.695-07:00sure. I've seen this a few times. cannot elabo...sure. I've seen this a few times. cannot elaborate too much. but things like ability to tell me about other people just by the hebrew name and mother's name. or tell me lots of things about myself such as if any mezuzas are no good or what things i did wrong in my life. he can it see by peering into the name. you have to see it with your own eyes to believe it. I have no doubt whatsoever that it's real. but these people don't advertise and they hate publicity so you kind of have to meet them by word of mouth. another Rabbi i met can read hands. sounds nuts, but there is something to it. i witnessed it. a friend of mine asked Rabbi Yaakov Hillel about him and he said the guy is kosher. "he has a mesora of this". cannot elaborate too much to avoid revealing their identity to the internet public.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-14045849470753094102014-05-28T22:31:16.235-07:002014-05-28T22:31:16.235-07:00Yosef, I have to say you piqued my curiosity with ...Yosef, I have to say you piqued my curiosity with the "clairvoyant people" remark. Would you like to elaborate?Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-69571419457866236382014-05-28T17:13:43.552-07:002014-05-28T17:13:43.552-07:00> the universe and everything in it cannot be e...> the universe and everything in it cannot be eternal since the Eternal is necessarily of a totally different "type" of existence.<br /><br />Why? And why are you capitalizing “eternal?”<br /><br />> we realize that our universe and everything in it is created by this Eternal thing<br /><br />Even if the cause of the universe is outside itself, is different from it, and is eternal, why would you assume it’s a “thing?”<br /><br />> we can examine the wisdom and benevolence exhibited in the created universe.<br /><br />Benevolence? To whom? Humans? Most of the universe, even most of our planet, is inhospitable to humans. And humanity’s experience, on the whole, is as much bad as it’s good. <br /><br />> this means prophecy is necessary for Him to tell us what He wants<br /><br />Even assuming an intelligent Creator, why would you assume that it’s necessary for Him to communicate with us? <br /><br />G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-69001585419954717252014-05-28T11:57:49.221-07:002014-05-28T11:57:49.221-07:00and just to clarify a bit more, I think the argume...and just to clarify a bit more, I think the arguments there are true and correct. only that one can find makeshift ways to attack their premises such as saying that an infinite regress is possible or that it is possible that both finite and infinite things can be eternal. my intuition and logic tells methis is impossible, but there is room for erring.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-71724578754983159902014-05-28T11:50:31.474-07:002014-05-28T11:50:31.474-07:00don't mean to say i lacked faith. just that it...don't mean to say i lacked faith. just that it became more "tangible", more lemaase.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-74829810044659852572014-05-28T11:48:50.050-07:002014-05-28T11:48:50.050-07:00if you are an atheist so you have nothing to lose....if you are an atheist so you have nothing to lose. I'm pretty sure he is referring to people who already have faith in the torah based on the tradition,but are not so strong in their faith that if they hit a difficult point which doesn't make sense to them, they will attribute the error to their faith instead of themselves and may wind up losing out. this is why many gedolim discouraged the way of chakira. It's a dangerous path for one who trusts his views too much. the Marpe Lenefesh commentary says in ch.10 "Marpe Lenefesh: - As we find recorded in books, that most of the early philosophers became insane. And we see even in our generation - those groups which go after their opinions and investigations, either they became crazy or they go out to evil ways.." nevertheless, I personally have found that the study of this gate has catapulted my faith to new levels. but i was already committed due to belief in God due to other factors such as intelligent design, wisdom in the torah and meeting people with clairvoyant people.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-72669669144103678782014-05-28T11:40:11.672-07:002014-05-28T11:40:11.672-07:001. if we establish there's a Creator. (agree s...1. if we establish there's a Creator. (agree sounds like faith) 3. I'm not so sure what the Pas Lechem meant by this point. does he mean hashgacha pratit or sinai or just the general signs of His beneficence towards His creations as he goes on to explain in the shaar bechina. not so clear about that.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-79419607226988660512014-05-28T10:01:05.159-07:002014-05-28T10:01:05.159-07:00Yosef, before I respond, here's how I understa...Yosef, before I respond, here's how I understand the Pas Lechem's points:<br /><br />1. If we agree there's a Creator, then we must say that the Creator has the power to create something from nothing.<br /><br />2. If we see the wisdom in the creation, then we must say that the Creator is wise.<br /><br />3. If we acknowledge that there is providence governing the world, then we must say that the Creator is living and among us.<br /><br />4. Points 1-3 above (a) logically must be the case and (b) also follow logically one from the other.<br /><br />Did I get that right?Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-36954564841729464092014-05-28T08:20:34.808-07:002014-05-28T08:20:34.808-07:00Yosef, first off - nice job on the translation. Th...Yosef, first off - nice job on the translation. That's a lot of work you put in! And a great resource to make available online.<br /><br />Second, based on your "2:52 AM" comment, I seem to lack the basic prerequisite to conduct this investigation (i.e. learn this sefer), since according to the normative frum perspective I'd be seen as lacking the "foundation of belief in the tradition". So am I then wasting my time? Also, if Chovos Halevavos is essentially a sefer providing "chizuk" to believers, strengthening their avodas Hashem by helping them to understand the intellectual "proofs" of what they already believe, the question (in my mind) is whether the arguments/proofs will truly hold up, or whether R. Bachya is counting on your emunah to help "fill in the gaps". (Will respond to your second comment when I have a chance...)<br />Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-26528575677075921902014-05-28T03:29:15.897-07:002014-05-28T03:29:15.897-07:00here's a quote from the Pas Lechem commentary ...here's a quote from the Pas Lechem commentary on chapter . does this help you? He began with the title: "powerful" because according to our understanding, He existed before everything, since immediately after we grasp that there exists a Creator who created the world from nothing, we will immediately recognize His power, namely, the act of creating something from nothing...After this, when we reflect on the details of creation, and we study them and their parts - we will see signs of His wisdom and we will know that He is wise. Afterwards, we contemplate His providence in governing the world, we will know that He is living and among us always. Understand that all of these descriptions are obligatory and follow one after the other, with the creation of the world as their first sourceHe began with the title: "powerful" because according to our understanding, He existed before everything, since immediately after we grasp that there exists a Creator who created the world from nothing, we will immediately recognize His power, namely, the act of creating something from nothing...After this, when we reflect on the details of creation, and we study them and their parts - we will see signs of His wisdom and we will know that He is wise. Afterwards, we contemplate His providence in governing the world, we will know that He is living and among us always. Understand that all of these descriptions are obligatory and follow one after the other, with the creation of the world as their first sourceyosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-66725141644528280642014-05-28T02:52:19.501-07:002014-05-28T02:52:19.501-07:00yes. the chovos halevavos holds one's duty is ...yes. the chovos halevavos holds one's duty is to arrive at certainty on these things. but nevertheless in the introduction he says that this investigation must rest on the foundation of belief in the tradition. the commentaries point out because these are things which need guidance due to their being extremely hard to grasp correctly, and without guidance one will almost certainly err. see the commentaries end of ch.3 http://dafyomireview.com/article.php?docid=398#ch3 the book goes on to show that there must be only one Creator, etc. because this is a necessary condition for something to be eternal, namely, to be an absolute Unity, indestructible, infinite, etc. and necessarily there can be only one such "Being".yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-71118353425037172402014-05-28T01:11:59.231-07:002014-05-28T01:11:59.231-07:00need to read your comments and will get back to yo...need to read your comments and will get back to you. BTW, i translated the shaar yichud. just put up an update.yosefnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-562076663669977182014-05-28T00:04:54.337-07:002014-05-28T00:04:54.337-07:00I want to correct something I said above... I can ...I want to correct something I said above... I can see from the beginning of Shaar Hayichud Ch. 3 that "Chovos Halevavos" most likely refers to the duty to use one's intellect and reasoning to try to grasp the concept of God's unity (and other related concepts), not the duty to think a certain way. (Yes, that's certainly a "duty" as well, since to think differently from the accepted beliefs is considered "heresy", but that's not what the title appears to mean.)Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2760004395394142531.post-35072944398519754162014-05-27T23:31:19.812-07:002014-05-27T23:31:19.812-07:00Thanks for sharing the link. Nicely sourced.Thanks for sharing the link. Nicely sourced.Atheodox Jewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06404924424040480039noreply@blogger.com